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Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:53:00 - [1] Originally by: Anell Learning skills make it possible to gain skills at a much faster rate (I can't believe I needed to point that out). I can't think of something that would turn more people off then finding out that the 4 day skill they are training now will suddenly require 7 days. Well obviously if they got rid of learning skills they would have to give everyone 5/5 on learning skills so no one would get burned by having trained them. Blizzard has done a similar thing recently by nerfing the amount of time it takes to level up, encouraging more people to try different classes etc. since it doesn't take nearly as long, and from what I understand it's been very successful in retaining existing players and attracting new ones. (By the way I currently have all learning skills at 4 and +5 attribute implants, and I would love if they got rid of the learning skills.)
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:57:00 - [2] Originally by: Vincent Lionhart Now for the morons who think that this is an "optional" skill. Why don't you look at your own skill tree and tell me if it's there. Is it optional? That is about the dumbest argument I've heard in my life. Agreed, most people sign up for MMOs at least thinking/planning they'll be there for the long haul, in which case the learning skills are absolutely essential. In my case, by training my learning skills to IV and getting implants, I'm shaving something like 2 MONTHS off my training time for a T2 battleship, around 30%, and when I go to train caps it'll be much more! Who in their right mind wouldn't train their learning skills, and as early as possible in the game?
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:05:00 - [3] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Imagine a 2 month newbie. CCP comes out and say "hi guys, guess what we are giving you free learnings NOW". The newbie : "well, I just trained two month for nothing.".! Sort of like how they nerfed the spaceship command skills so you only need Frigate IV to start training Cruisers instead of Frigate V etc.? Sure it sucked if you spent all the time training Frigate V, Cruiser V, Battleship V etc. but does anyone regret that change?
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:06:00 - [4] Originally by: Tempest Kane I had to invest alot of time to get to that point. I had to see about 4-5 months of learning skills go by to get to that point. And you want to allow people to just not do that anymore just coz time has passed? Its an insult to the players who have allready invested the time into them core skills for the system to change. Im dead against it. Your messing with the core values of eve online, even if they are flawed its too late. You should have though about this 5 years ago. You cant go around messing about with this stuff now. Sure they can, and they've done it before, see above post.
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:10:00 - [5] Originally by: Bohoba thats because of 5 pages of wine and no suggetions :) You should read those 5 pages before commenting. Amongst the suggestions: Get rid of learning skills and give everyone +10 or 15 (factoring implants) to their attributes (sounds pretty easy). Get rid of learning skills and refund people's skill points (no current way to "spend" skill points though). Get rid of implants and refund at market value.
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:41:00 - [6] Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Umm i had a look, you are a Caldari Achura, School of Applied Knowledge of nearly 3 months standing, says it all doesn't it. Nice ad hominem. Originally by: Brainless Bimbo You want more people in eve, well i'm afraid that the hardware has a finite capacity, it may increase with new hardware in the pipeline but i think they would rather have people in the game who understand it no matter how disruptive (goonies) they are than to pander to people who can't think about the choices they make. You think CCP wants LESS revenue, do you? Originally by: Brainless Bimbo The reason they are different is to give different people choices, why do you think there are so many Caldari Achura, because people don't have any imagination, flexability or basic criticial thinking skills. If new players didn't have critical thinking skills, they wouldn't be choosing Caldari Achura to minimize their training time. Originally by: Brainless Bimbo You may not have noticed but every mmo game has attributes, tell wow to abolish attributes and buffs cos you got killed and see what reaction you get. Blizzard makes dramatic changes to WoW all the time, aimed at both veterans and new players (see the recent huge XP nerfs for leveling) and they keep adding millions of subscribers. Of course this is only relevant if you think CCP wants to make money, which you don't seem to. Originally by: Brainless Bimbo No because from my understanding they then gave you tech II ships so it was useful time spent and gave an advantage to those that had done it So do dreadnought pilots feel getting access to a T2 frigate is adequate compensation for spending 2 weeks training Frigates V before the nerf? It's clear from your posts you're a veteran player who wants to preserve his huge SP lead over new players, which is completely understandable - so why not just admit it? Your arguments to the contrary aren't doing you any favours.
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 04:31:00 - [7] Edited by: Zero Target on 11/03/2008 04:34:51 Originally by: Hippy Dave Where this logic utterly fails is that when those same players hit the point where they are say looking to get into T2 ships they will get that same feeling of utter despair when their lvl5 skills are taking weeks to complete rather than just a week. If they removed learning skills it would probably take me like 10 days to train this and thats just one skill out of many. If they removed them i would actually consider quitting cause i know how long it would take to train some of my long term goal skills. Please read the whole thread, no one's suggesting REDUCING attributes, but rather boosting everyone's attributes and removing the learning skills so new players don't have to spend months training them, which they all do and usually very early if they're smart. Originally by: Hippy Dave And as for dropping them and boosting all att's by 10 well that sucks then we all just become carbon copies of each other except the 5 random creation points and implants... I hardly think a Caldari dreadnought pilot is a "carbon copy" of a Minmatar inty pilot just because they have the same attributes, do you?
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Avon Are you honestly trying to tell me that someone joining Eve today should be able to do all the things that an "elitist" veteran can immediately? Or quickly? Or eventually? Or after investing the same amount of time and effort? Eventually, and with less time and effort. Why? Let's say CCP keeps rolling out high-SP stuff like Titans or new T3 gear, without changing the time it takes to obtain those items. New players eventually will take one look at the YEARS of committment it takes to fly a single competitive ship and say "forget it". UO, EQ, EQ2 (for what it's worth) and WoW all evolved over time to allow new players to get the good stuff faster and to ensure they could be competitive with veterans, otherwise you will not be able to recruit new players.
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Hippy Dave Edited by: Hippy Dave on 11/03/2008 05:24:54 Originally by: Zero Target Edited by: Zero Target on 11/03/2008 04:34:51 Please read the whole thread, no one's suggesting REDUCING attributes, but rather boosting everyone's attributes and removing the learning skills so new players don't have to spend months training them, which they all do and usually very early if they're smart. Yeah nice way to quote two tiny portions of my post to illustrate your point and discount the other points which were probably more valid. I didn't discount your other points, they had been made multiple times in the thread already, which you would know if you read the thread as I advised. Originally by: Hippy Dave Originally by: Zero Target I hardly think a Caldari dreadnought pilot is a "carbon copy" of a Minmatar inty pilot just because they have the same attributes, do you? No but his STATS would be you utter fool, dont try and be clever when your point is clearly flawed I never said their skills would be the same did I No, you said if characters had the same attributes that they would be "carbon copies" of each other, which is ludicrous as I pointed out. And there's no need for name calling. On that point, does anyone really care what their attributes are besides how they affect your learning time? Do people compare attributes for e-peen purposes? Do you fly your attributes around in space for people to see, or do they show up in your forum posts? If CCP got rid of attributes entirely and kept / boosted our skill learning times, would anyone really care?
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:07:00 - [10] Edited by: Zero Target on 11/03/2008 15:08:01 Originally by: Danton Marcellus Originally by: Zero Target Originally by: Avon Are you honestly trying to tell me that someone joining Eve today should be able to do all the things that an "elitist" veteran can immediately? Or quickly? Or eventually? Or after investing the same amount of time and effort? Eventually, and with less time and effort. Why? Let's say CCP keeps rolling out high-SP stuff like Titans or new T3 gear, without changing the time it takes to obtain those items. New players eventually will take one look at the YEARS of committment it takes to fly a single competitive ship and say "forget it". UO, EQ, EQ2 (for what it's worth) and WoW all evolved over time to allow new players to get the good stuff faster and to ensure they could be competitive with veterans, otherwise you will not be able to recruit new players. In WoW a high level character always kill a low level one with little to no effort, that's not the case in EVE, I rest my case, as well as my WoW account. The "good stuff" I was referring to is endgame gear, levels have nothing to do with it as in WoW and other MMOs you typically spend a month leveling then potentially YEARS playing the same max-level toon at endgame. Sort of like training learning skills in EVE.
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 19:40:00 - [11] Originally by: Hippy Dave It would remove a huge aspect of the game which makes it a RP game. How crap would it be if some cyber knight-special forces guy could train the same skills just as fast as a tech skilled R&D character... would totally remove all sense of immersion from the game. It would basically become a FPS in space where your character choices (career/race) made no difference to your experience. Fair enough. I figured the RP crew wouldn't care because RP isn't about numbers and stats and stuff, and removing attributes doesn't have to change races and bloodlines and all that RP backstory fodder, but I don't RP so I wouldn't know. Originally by: Hippy Dave Why dont we just set all cruiser and frigate skills to 5, set all electronics and support skills to 5 and start everyone on 15mill SP.... its the logical progression of what you are proposing and if you cant see that then you have another agenda First the ad hominems, now the slippery slopes, did you take Arguing On The Internet 101? While I think you're exaggerating about giving new players 15 million skill points, I'm sure you're aware that CCP has already doubled the amount of SP that a new player gets compared to a few years ago, so hopefully you see the writing on the wall - CCP is going to continue to make it easier for new players to get into the game. Removing learning skills is a great way to achieve this aim, and if done properly can also benefit veteran players as well.
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:42:00 - [12] Originally by: Kendar Zek After about 5 months of playing, I left the game. When I started, I thought I was in it for the long haul, but after months of playing and still not being able to do much more than mine and run Lv 1 missions, I moved on to another game. Over 18 months later, I was back. I've closed my account again since then for another 7 months. I could probably argue as well as the rest that the learning skills aren't worthwhile and should be removed. After all, they killed my initial enthusiasm about the game. I'm guessing CCP would rather keep people interested in the game, so that they pay to play every month instead of taking 25 months off every once in a while.
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:50:00 - [13] Edited by: Zero Target on 11/03/2008 20:52:17 Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Why don't we level the fields for the new players to match those that the older players had: 1) Not allowed to use implants for the first 6 months 2) Not allowed to train advanced skills for 1 year 3) Set the requirement for advanced learning skills back up to level 5 in the matching basic skill How about that ? Really, if you want instant gratification then EVE ISN'T FOR YOU Take solace in the fact that when T2 Titans are rolled out, you'll be flying them in an empty universe unless CCP continues to make ships and equipment easier to attain for new players. It's happened already in the game multiple times (increased SP for new players, new bloodlines with better attributes, reduction of ship skill path from needing Vs to IVs etc.) and will keep happening, so spare us your indignation. Again, removing the learning skill grind, if done properly, can achieve this goal while also providing benefits to veteran players.
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Avon Giving everyone a Titan and having conga contests isn't going to make for epic gameplay. Did you and Hippy Dave take the same internet debate class? Assuming you didn't respond to the wrong thread by mistake (conga lines?), what we're talking about here is getting rid of the learning skills in such a way as to not penalize veteran players. If your complaint is that this will allow new players to close the skills gap on veteran BoB players like yourself, see here.
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Malcanis But who is supposed to be giving this bad advice? I haven't see one person yet say that a new player OUGHT to do nothing but train learning skills. Yeah, that doesn't match my experience either. I almost always see people advising new players to use EVEMon to determine which learning skills to train, and to first aim for a moneymaking ship to afford all those fancy T2 skill books later, which I think is solid advice for new players. However those new players are going to go straight to training learning skills for a month or more if their goals are loftier than a T2 frigate, and wouldn't it be great if they didn't have to?
Zero Target	Posted - 2008.03.13 11:44:00 - [16] Originally by: Tarron Sarek The big problem is that even with Learning Skills gone, new players will still complain. Yeah, you never hear veterans complaining about anything in the forums, right?
Zero Target	Posted - 2008.03.13 12:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Reven Darklight This game is supposed to be a thinking game, if people don't want to think for themselves and just accept everything told to them, these will be the same people who will be scammed in EVE and in RL we don't want them. If noobs get 'burned out' just training to get the learning skills and leave, well we probable don't want them either. I keep seeing this "thinking game" argument, where people claim that smart or wise players would never start out training learning skills, and I'm completely baffled by it. When EVEMon shows you in black and white that it'll take less time to get into that cool ship 6 months from now if you spend a month training learning skills, what kind of "thinking" would lead you to ignore that advice? Unless by "thinking" you mean "roleplaying"? ;)
Zero Target	Posted - 2008.03.13 12:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Qarth Okay lets break it down a little more. With say 4/3 in ALL the learning skills, how much time do you save training a rank 1 or 2 skill? Little to none. You might save a couple hours time in overall training from 0 to level 5 in said skill at rank 1 Now say you have learning at 5/5 in all skills. How much time do you save in training a rank 1 skill vs. say a rank 14 skill? The difference is massive at rank 14 and pitiful at rank 1. So training up all those learning skills in the 1st month is a waste of time that you should have spent training you basic ship skills to get you flying and fighting better. Thats why you are doing it bass ackwards. Actually, you're the one who has it completely wrong. Why? Let's say you want to train 10 low-rank skills that are 5,000 SP each, versus 1 high-rank skill that's 50,000 SP. How long will it take you to train the 10 low-rank skills versus the 1 high-rank skill? That's right, exactly the same amount of time. That means by training learning skills, you receive the exact same benefit towards learning low-rank skills as high-rank skills in terms of time saved, even if the "time saved per skill" is lower. The only real factor that goes into deciding how far you should train learning skills is how long you figure you'll be playing EVE (since there's always SOMETHING to train), and since people usually sign up for an MMO for the long haul that means spending time in station training learning skills, or regretting it later.
Zero Target	Posted - 2008.03.13 12:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Wu Jiun Bad idea. Players have invested millions of sp into these skills. There is one rule in eve that ccp pretty much obeys: don't mess with sps. Granted skills can be more or less helpful at different times but taking away skills with no replacements is just wrong. Not everyone has 70m sp. Some player for example started right before the expansion where you only needed to learn the basic learnings to 4 and where you started with 900ksp instead of 80k. (RMR?) Those will be screwed the most well maybe apart from those that started the game 3 months ago and just got through the learnings skills maybe. They will get a reset to zero. The more i think about it this is the worst idea ever. Please take the time to read at least the first page in the thread, no one wants to remove SPs or lessen SP learning rates for anyone.
Zero Target State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:50:00 - [20] Originally by: Cutie Chaser Some people would call it a catch-22, I prefer to refer to it as a '**** if you do, **** if you don't' scenario. Precisely, so why keep it in the game?
Zero Target State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:52:00 - [21] Edited by: Zero Target on 15/03/2008 04:52:22 Originally by: Qarth I'm done trying to explain the folly of the "Train your Learning skills 1st" ideology. If you're too dense to see how long it is to the payoff, you really do need to suffer. While it's possible to train the learning skills too far as you say, a month training learning pays itself off in 6 months for a lot of builds, and I think most people get into an MMO expecting to stay 6 months at least.
Zero Target State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:55:00 - [22] Originally by: SheriffFruitfly Originally by: Qarth There is the point!!! 1 YEAR LATER It takes a year of playing time for the moment you stop training those learning skills to get the time spent back! So is that really worth the investment? 1 year? for sitting in the station for 2 weeks doing nothing but staring at the docking ring the entire time? Spoken like a true American who wants everything, and they want it now, else they'll whine. Read the rest of his post, he's arguing to keep learning skills in the game. I guess he's not American?
Zero Target State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:14:00 - [23] Originally by: Cyran Martellus Threads like this remind me of the folks that returned the original Final Fantasy because: "I didn't know there was reading in it." Again this mysterious notion that the players who are good at math are somehow lazy or stupid. If you value your time and you believe EVEMon, you're going to spend a few weeks minimum training learning skills, or you'll regret it later. Unless you don't actually understand what you're giving up by not doing so.
Zero Target State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 23:40:00 - [24] Edited by: Zero Target on 17/03/2008 23:41:28 Originally by: Mynameistoby Edited by: Mynameistoby on 17/03/2008 01:54:48 Edited by: Mynameistoby on 17/03/2008 01:52:49 As someone who started at 1.27.08 I've trained all learning skills to 4 and cybernetics to 5 and have +5 implants. I have electronics 5, thats the only other skill... so now the game starts for me. Is that the way things should be? I don't know. But I do know that I am in station with about a dozen skill books and won't be doing anything else for the next few months except for training to get into t2 frigates. I thought... hmm... as I know I will be not fighting for a while due to being worried about losing my +5's I'll get a cov ops ship and explore and try not to be an idiot and get podded somehow. I can't sit in gate camps without a battlecruiser but I might be able to run an interceptor well in a couple months in lowsec in a small gang. I offer this up as a new player who's read the forums much more than playing because I haven't had much of anything to do ingame as just my experience and perspective from January 27. edit. charisma to 2 and no +5 for it Hello Caldari Achura Inventor. Also, buy a Jump Clone so you don't have to risk your expensive implants.
Zero Target State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 23:45:00 - [25] Originally by: Guttripper The original intention for the learning skills would still be in place except now newbies will never be able to catch up to me. First MMO? Newbies always catch up, and at a rate that makes veterans cry. Why? Because newbies aren't stupid and won't invest their time into a game where they can never compete with veterans, and by "can never compete" I mean "can't compete in a hurry".
Zero Target State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 23:51:00 - [26] Originally by: OwlManAtt The learning skills are, indeed, a fun tax, as are all of the skills in the game. They're all intended to be time sinks you have to brave before you can use a cool new piece of equipment. What cool new piece of equipment is unlocked when you train learning skills? That's sort of the point of the "fun tax" argument, grinding to unlock a cool ship or weapon can be fun but grinding to be able to grind faster is sort of a... meta-grind? At any rate it sucks.
Zero Target State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.20 18:12:00 - [27] Here's a great article about how Blizzard is assumed to be "dumbing down" World of Warcraft by making endgame PvE and gear more accessible, when in fact it's a great way to recruit new players (since veterans never hold their gear advantages for long) and to keep existing players moving forward through the game. Removing learning skills (with suitable compensation for players that have already trained them) is a great way to achieve those aims in EVE.

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